Curse

Seraphim of Chaos · Aug 24, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

They suck. They're all heals, unless if you count Disciplined Stance, Bonetti's Defense, Shield Stance, Shield Bash all on the same bar as prot.

So um.

Yeah they're bad.

Seraphim of Chaos · Aug 24, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

because a class whos main purpose is too keep things alive, doing just that sucks.

CLOSE THIS PLZ.

You're dumb.

What I'm trying to say is that the current meta allows Monks to just slap on patient spirit+WoH and a billion stances to get by. That is a very very bad thing.

Seraphim of Chaos · Aug 24, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

woh has always been part of the meta? Patient has a 2 sec time to actually do anything, which is more than enough time to spike something. What do you want? skills that heal for less?

WoH has been meta for less than a year... Who can get spikes through Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance, and every other stance?

|Readem| · Aug 25, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

zzz how else will they survive the onslaught of gay RaO...this thread is as bad as the current game balance of guild wars.

Foe · Aug 25, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

SUPAR SECRET WARRIORS INFO INCOMING DON'T TRAIN THE STANCE MONK. Also he doesn't have a res sig.
Your right though, in context of the conversation the WoH bars are ez, red bars go up. The ZB/prot bars of old were no where as forgiving not to mention omg u were responsible for conds and hexes. With that said the new skills and " old skill re balancing" would leave you in a world of hurt running the old stuff. 10en back on my zb plz.

sLiceR · Aug 25, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Well stances are the only way to keep up against decent double melee groups, since the nerf to guardian recharge a bit of time ago. Unless they buff Guardian again you are not going to see different monk bars.

the_deSKtructor · Aug 25, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

They suck. They're all heals, unless if you count Disciplined Stance, Bonetti's Defense, Shield Stance, Shield Bash all on the same bar as prot.

So um.

Yeah they're bad.

Don't blame monk bars. Blame foul fest necros that basically made condition removal on monk useless, with the result that monks replaced that skill with:
a) a second defensive skill (ie stance/stance, stance/shield bash, dark escape/return...)
b) one more hex removal

Teh Jace · Aug 25, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

The introduction of FF made 2 slots on monk bars free. Noone forces u to run a retarded fortress monk.

This is what I run...

[WoH][Pensive Guardian][Vigorous spirit][Purge signet][patient spirit][signet of rejuvenation][holy veil][shield of force]

Prot at 9.

Was tested vs all bullshit outta there with pro results.
This build has no uber OMGSOMEONESAVEME button, is interruptable, has prot.

The truth is many monks run a fortress bar which looks like

[WoH][patient spirit][Vigorous spirit][spotless mind][holy veil][signet of rejuvenation][disciplined stance][shield bash]

but that's a different story.

Having ff on nec is simililar to running draw condi on ele (long time ago)... was it lame too?

Krill · Aug 26, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

Don't blame monk bars. Blame foul fest necros that basically made condition removal on monk useless, with the result that monks replaced that skill with:
a) a second defensive skill (ie stance/stance, stance/shield bash, dark escape/return...)
b) one more hex removal

You're grossly over simplifying why monk bars went from ZB-prot, to WoH hybrid to WoH no prot. Buffed curses enchant removal, axe thumpers, and magebane shot spammers didn't help...the addition of patient spirit and spotless mind took healing prayers over the top.

urania · Aug 26, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

not only patient spirit, but vig spirit as well. its the best cover for veils there is and the best spell to have when u're in a 2 melee+ff nec or 1 melee+ff nec teams. guess why =p.
the fact that a woh bar is a lot harder to shutdown because of its many backup heals as well as the fact it can bring more defense or other kind of utility then a ZB bar makes it pay off more than relying on ZB as the only hard heal.
some monks still bring guard though, so woh isnt always completely without prot.

the_deSKtructor · Aug 26, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

You're grossly over simplifying why monk bars went from ZB-prot, to WoH hybrid to WoH no prot. Buffed curses enchant removal, axe thumpers, and magebane shot spammers didn't help...the addition of patient spirit and spotless mind took healing prayers over the top.

No, i know why they went from port to heal. I just wasn't talking about that in my previous post. I was referring to the fact that having no condition removal on monks allowed them to get a second stance (or 1 more hex removal) and that helped in making them fortress bar. I've always agreed that the mindless enchantment removal buff only made prots from less effective to useless.

Teh Jace · Aug 26, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

One of the well playable ZB bars used to be this one

[Zealous benediction][guardian][mend condition][mending touch][rof][divine spirit][holy veil][mantra of concentration]

How many prots? 1 (some brave ppl used to bring only dismiss condition and soa or sh hands but it was rather RA only since BHA rangers were eating them alive)!
The Mo/D I posted has 2!

Hard prots were always shitty unless it was a crazy gay combo: ps + fd

ZB bar was about prots as much as WoH hybrid is so stop whinning. It was rather a cond removal bar than a prot bar.

And one more thing for all u prot hataz

2 necro bars (fundamentals)

[defile defenses][faintheartedness][plague sending][foul feast][grasping earth][glyph of lesser energy][resurrection signet]
This one can have 1 ench removal!
[faintheartedness][defile defenses][plague sending][foul feast][shield bash][resurrection signet]
And this one up to 2 ench removals while CE suffers from being a hex (1.5s on veiled targets) and rip or rend are interruptable as well.

Back in time it was rend and ce on nec + another rend on warr = 3 ench removals.

How many ench removals do RaO guys run? 0!
And vs hexway u dont need any prots at all.

Guys I'm not sure if we play the same arena.

Barkeep · Aug 26, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Good teams do not need ench removal to remove prots, they avoid them by switching to a new target or interrupt them when needed.

The only reason why people used to bring rend/rend/CE was EDA. Even during those days we only ran CE. Plague Touch on the warrior was just as effective to counter that, and more useful in other matches.

Monks in TA do not have backup from another monk usually, so they have to look after themselves and their team. The main purpose of a monk is to make sure their team doesn't die, so he needs "hard heals" for that.

WoH and patient are simply the best choise. You could take ZB/RoF to do the same job, but RoF is less effective in TA, because there's so much degen pressure going on.

Ugh.. wtf am I doing, im not gonna explain for every skill why it's there.

Basically, there was always just one prot that was unquestionable in TA; Guardian. So why did monks drop guardian? Because nobody is cool enough to run dual war anymore? Because people arent good enough to take adventage of a necro with just shield bash to stop two melees from ganking him? Because those dual warrior builds get owned by überdefensive play from linebackers? Because FF stops teams from cracking fast to dual war / ranger? Or because one WoH after the spike is just as effective as 1 guardian before the spike and much easier too?

I dunno.. you tell me..

Teh Jace · Aug 26, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Gurdian will see much more play soon due to: rangers dropping magebane for emp, annoying gay hammer linebackers, CE necros (u don't need guardian to safely cast 1/4 skills like wod).

WoH stopping a spike is a bullshit... especially vs 2 warrs. And WoH spammage drains energy very quickly.

And if ppl can't take advantage on training fragile defensless necro (any warrior getting regulary owned by sh bash should stop playing TA) then it's kinda sad.

Krill · Aug 26, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

I was referring to the fact that having no condition removal on monks allowed them to get a second stance (or 1 more hex removal) and that helped in making them fortress bar.

I agree with what you're saying, but I just don't see condition removal ever going back to being solely the monks responsibility even if ff is nerfed into oblivion. Tha old ZB bar Jace posted, wouldn't even want to think about running something like that now.

Master Ketsu · Aug 26, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

That, and Woh spammage makes it obvious. When the monk is stressed and must use it on recharge it suddenly becomes very easy to int.

Sun Fired Blank · Aug 26, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

If you ran Guardian for Pensive Guardian, a stance for Shield of Force, and Spotless Mind for Purge Signet, you would have roughly the same bar that every monk in arenas runs, and in principle it's exactly the same as every other generic bar in arenas. Not impressed.

Teh Jace · Aug 26, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

If you ran Guardian for Pensive Guardian, a stance for Shield of Force, and Spotless Mind for Purge Signet, you would have roughly the same bar that every monk in arenas runs, and in principle it's exactly the same as every other generic bar in arenas. Not impressed.

Umm I guess u are looking for a pve section then.

Monk bars always had 1 (rarely 2) prot and stance.

Foe · Aug 26, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

the addition of patient spirit and spotless mind took healing prayers over the top.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep

WoH and patient are simply the best choise. You could take ZB/RoF to do the same job, but RoF is less effective in TA, because there's so much degen pressure going on.

there it is in a nutshell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

If you ran Guardian for Pensive Guardian, a stance for Shield of Force, and Spotless Mind for Purge Signet, you would have roughly the same bar that every monk in arenas runs, and in principle it's exactly the same as every other generic bar in arenas.

that bar is amazing and i hope to see EVERYONE running it immediately!
2 sec cast that costs u 10en per removal vs 1/4 sec cast that costs you 2.5 en per removed hex O BABY! Pensive and Shield of Force gtfo

Teh Jace · Aug 26, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foe

and

there it is in a nutshell

that bar is amazing and i hope to see EVERYONE running it immediately!
2 sec cast that costs u 10en per removal vs 1/4 sec cast that costs you 2.5 en per removed hex O BABY! Pensive and Shield of Force gtfo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP1SsfnSFDs